I also think that Flair/HBK could have, and probably should have, mained over Taker and Edge underneath that same principle of what else matters after someone considered one of the GOATs retires.

this thread changed course very quickly hahahah.

but, i agree with shane on a lot of his points. I do believe that Cena is the new Hogan of our generation, and he isn't as good a worker as Orton. Why do I like Orton over Cena? because Randy actually seems to like switching up his matches. He also has interesting spots in his matches too. Case in point, his match on RAW last year against Evan Bourne. The SSP into the RKO was fucking awesome to see done on TV in a pro ring, especially on WWE programming. I can't tell you the last time I've seen Cena do anything unique like that at all. oh wait, he does that totally awesome leg drop off the top rope every now and then (-_-). Orton's also been in as many good feuds as Cena. Orton and Christian had a very entertaining feud over the summer, even with a few stellar matches on Smackdown. His short feud with Cody Rhodes recently has helped me think Rhodes is an absolute beast who should definitely be seeing a push in the near future. Orton's character actually has a purpose too, he's a psychotic fuck that we all can get behind. Cena doesn't have a character. He's a wigger/army ranger/colorful flamer that doesn't know what to do with himself. however, Cena's had some solid matches, so I can't hate on him for that.

i've lost direction with what I've wanted to say. so i'll stop here. and Tek, a man who gets up with his legs crossed is a bitch.

If the fans were as smart as tehy are today. Hogan would have booed out of the building back in the mid 80's.

Big difference between the crowd's reactions to Cena and Hogan is that there was no internet wrestling community in Hogan's heyday.

the things they chant at cena are the equivalent of the fans telling hogan to take his vitamins and prayers and shove them up his yous kno where

Cody Rhodes has developed greatly. I don't agree with the Ziggler praise, but agree with most of everything else Shane has said. Cena is one of, if not THE HARDEST working guy in WWE. Does that make him a good worker, no. He's the only person I've seen screw up a Spear sell and Spinebuster sell, in the SAME match. They are seriously the two easiest back bumps to take in all of wrestling. I'm sorry, but his sloppy ('modified") moves are terrible, and him vs. punk was sloppy as hell on his part. He is a kids hero, so was hogan. More fans were like kids in the 80's though. They wanted to believe. The crowd has evolved, the product has evolved, but Cena's gimmick is straight out of the 80's and has only de-evolved since his inception. Orton is revered as the best worker in the biz, not only by marks, and indy workers, but by guys who have worked him, legends in the biz, etc. The guy gets you into his matches, has evolved SO much since breaking into WWE (3rd Gen. Blue Chipper to Psychopath/Apex Predator). His body motions are mesmerizing. He can tell a story in that ring better than just about everyone else. He has some of the most memorable spots put into his matches and can work a solid GREAT match with just about everyone. Honestly who would you rather see work these guys, out of Cena and Orton -

Ziggler
Bourne
Kofi
Sheamus
Punk
Justin Gabriel
Wade Barret
Daniel Bryan
Tyson Kid

Sorry, but I feel every single time - the match up with Orton is a much more entertaining match up possibility.

I think maybe on a one off match, yes, the match with Orton will be entertaining. But if you give me a month of build and a match up on a PPV, then Cena's going to make me care more every single time.

^ I completely disagree. Christian/Orton or Rhodes/Orton were both more entertaining than anything Cena has built up - with the exception of the Rock - that's solely due to the Rock's participation imo. Rock/Orton or Rock/Miz would be so much more entertaining than Rock/Cena. They're only going to have 1 match anyway. The only good thing coming out of Cena/Rock is the fact that Ryder is being paired with Cena and getting a push out of it.

Orton gets over with the violence aspect - he's probably the closest thing to the Attitude Era that WWE will have or has had in quite a while. On top of that he's much more innovative and much more "real" to watch in the ring. Orton/Punk is more entertaining a feud than Cena/Punk. I don't see how you can argue that Cena is better than Orton. It's like arguing that imitation crab is better than Lobster.

Orton could be listed eventually as the Best of all time. Many have made the argument for it, and it is a very solid one. His biggest problem is that there isn't the level of competition in the Ricky Steamboat, Ric Flair, Sammartino, etc. He's not in a time where wrestling is more important than the story, and I really think that hurts his cause. In fact, that reason is the only reason Cena is over. If it was based on wrestling skill instead of story, Cena would be listed in the mid-card.

Cena can't even make mid-carders look good. Orton can go over anyone and still make the other person look amazing. And I 100% agree that the Orton/Punk feud was far more entertaining both storyline and match wise then the Cena/Punk feud. The only thing that made the Cena/Punk matches good was a mixture of Punk, where they we're for MITB, and how high the stakes we're for Summer Slam.

I'm sorry, but there's no way Punk/Orton from Mania was better than Cena/Punk from MITB. I'd have to say Punk/Cena tops Orton/Punk in every way possible.. Their match at MITB, summerslam, and the night after on RAW were top fucking notch.

At the end of the day, it's all a matter of opinion. I thought the MITB match dragged out way too long, and that Cena was rather sloppy during it. The Summer Slam match was a little bit better IMO, but the match they had on RAW was my favorite from that series.

I thought Orton vs. Punk at WrestleMania was an excellent match. It was pure precision on both ends with such great psychology. Have you seen Orton vs. Punk from Extreme Rules? Another great fucking match.

the atmosphere for Punk/Cena at MITB made that match so much better IMO. I know that can do wonders for any match, but if MITB wasn't in Chicago, I doubt we'd be talking about that as a MOTY contender.

Wrenegade, I agree with you completely. Orton's the fucking man, and can have a good feud with anyone. He's somewhat the kind of face Austin was in the ring....violent, angry, yet the fans love him.

I fell off the Orton bandwagon for a while, because I thought he was getting boring, but over the last year or more, he's been the total man, and I love it.